re: re: Hotspots, Second Life's New Controversies

Gwyn, thanks for taking the time to reply to my last entry! :D

It's so much info, I had to put it in a new blog post. Again, Gwyn's words are summarized, and in italics.

The question here is simple: will you trust someone on a relationship — personal or business — taht flatly refuses to talk to you on the phone?

Business - no. But I already do it via real phone or Skype anyway, and I'd assume most business people in SL do the same. There's little impact on SL because RL business people in SL make up a tiny % of the population. As for people doing in-world business, there's no need to do phone calls for microtransactions - IMs work fine.

Personal - yes, sure. I have had and have and will continue to have meaningful personal relationships with friends whom I only chat with via text.

but it also means for the voice-challenged that you'll look as stupid as you sound

And lots of people are horrible typists, too, with awful grammar, spelling, word-use, they swear a lot, and what-not. So what? Again, if they need to do business, they are using phone / Skype already, and if it's personal, I don't think it'll matter if it's text.

Let's talk about numbers here, Hiro :) The number of people who read books these days is a tiny, microscopic fraction of all people who know to read and write. TV is not exactly "immersion" in the sense that it requires a conscious effort to do so — unlike a book. Although "play games" is definitely a form of immersion, I'd like to have an idea on how many people do, indeed, play games routinely for immersion, as a percentage of the overall population, spread across all age bands (like SL does). I wonder if it's not much closer to the number of book readers than TV watchers!

While you may be right about books, it was only one item in my list of examples, adding to a cumulative effect of "people immerse themselves to have fun". Actually, thinking about it, people immerse themselves in physical sports, which are outside the rules and context of everyday life, too. "Immersion" is suspension of disbelief, and/or it's leaving the real world and finding another to be in temporarily. It's escapism. Richard Bartle rightly points out that you don't need graphics for it, either. Granted, pictures do help immersion. So does being at a place.

However, the mind is powerful. A buddy of mine clued me in to a study that showed that people watching performers actually started emulating similar brain patterns to the performer. Realize - the expectation was that they're different - enjoying should be, logically, different from performing. However, what they found indicates that when you enjoy something, even if you're a passive observer, your brain is tricked into being immersed into the same patterns of the performer. Eerie, huh?

People jump at scary movies because they have suspended disbelief. People cry when their favorite sit-com couple breaks up, for the same reason. Just because TV and such doesn't require a "conscious effort". (Though certainly conscious effort might make it *more* immersive.)

So I think you have your immersionist ratio backwards. Just like it is now in SL, 99%+ are using it for fun - for immersion.

(I said:) On the other hand, if you look at tech like Reallusion's CrazyTalk, and at Gwyn's mention of the Logitech webcam software, you'll find that the face-morphing can be applied to some pretty far-out avatars. So, it'll still be your choice whether it's you in world.

Yes, I agree, I was more thinking of real-time face morphing of your RL face on top of your avatar... so that it looks exactly like yourself.

The current technology of displaying your features on top of any type/style of avatar (coupled to voice morphing) is much more in line with Bartle's views of immersion, and obviously I'd enjoy that. Still, as said, you can't disguise a bad accent or a stutter or simple shyness...

Sorry, you have this backwards. Facial morphing software is something where you absolutely can fill in the gaps. You can have your avatar wear a smile by default. You can customize the look of your avatar. You can tweak settings so that your morphing software exaggerates or understates your expressions. It should hopefully capture all sorts of subtle nuances with your expressions, but the bottom line, that fact doesn't affect immersionists at all. Immersionists do want to show their real feelings, only through a different body or role.

And they can always turn the webcam off. Same as voice. Use an emoter HUD, no big deal. If you're so bent on how far role-players will go to mask themselves, then by your same logic, those roleplayers will be as tolerant of that behavior in others.

(I said:) Granted, an appeal system needs to be in place for people who are falsely censored.

Indeed, that was the point here. LL will do nothing of the sort.

The appeal system I was talking about is more of a community driven one. Just as we can use a distributed model to ban people, so could we too use a distributed model to unban.

I was thinking along the following lines. Someone makes a comment that I'm wearing a too short skirt (it happened!), and require that I flag it as adult content. I refuse, since short skirts are definitely not 'adult' content, unless the person doing the request comes from an Amish camp or is some sort of Islamic fundamentalist. This person then flags my account for review by LL, and eventually, LL will force me to wear the 'adult' flag on that skirt. Our Puritan friend smiles. After a lot of discussion and persuasion I eventually get that flag removed, and my skirt becomes "PG" again. Furious, our fundamentalist friend now enters my name on all major banlists on the grid. I'm limited to enter my own parcel only, and walk across Linden Land — bye bye SL.

I definitely believe that Linden Lab will be open to including reasons why people are banned as part of the mechanism, and I would encourage people to do it. If people want to flag you as "banned for sexual content" then indeed, there will be other fundamentalists who will also want to ban you for the same reason. So be it.

Perhaps the easiest thing in the ban list implementation is for any initial banning, it tag it with who did the initial ban and require a reason to be input.

(I said, regarding getting around adult ratings by simply hovering outside of the area and camera'ing inside:) All of this predicates on being able to see it with your camera. I predict instead Linden Lab will cull the mature data for unverifieds, as part of the same technology that Linden Lab is developing to cull data for muted residents. (They announced the later about a year ago.)

You might be right on that (I've seen it mentioned as being close to completion, although in other completely unrelated issue, which however could be used here as well) although it comes to my mind that some strange results might occur if you are wearing a PG skin and an 'adult' dress over that skin... :)

There will always be exceptions and bugs and we should expect them, and expect Linden Lab to fix them.

(I said: ) Gwyn, you certainly are on a cynical streak! The vast majority of SL, while it may be "M" rated, is more like PG or PG-13. Most users don't have porn, even if they keep their land "M" rated in order to be able to drop the occasional swear word. ...

Most definitely very cynical and sarcastic :) However, "most users don't have porn" is the understatement of the year; I'd say, "most users don't have anything but porn". ... We're mentally trained to ignore porn pop-ups or porn-related spam, and simply avoid these, and have the idea that just because Google does not list any porn (they have great filters!) it isn't there.

Ah, you misunderstood me. When I said "most users don't have porn" I meant that they don't have it on their land. Most people have PG plots of land. Do most users *encounter* porn in SL? I'd say that's a likelihood, of course.

... Whole subcontinents or vast areas of the SL mainland are just porn — even if more often, these days, on skyboxes.

Disagree. Look at the classified ad / Find tools with and without Mature turned on. PG wins.

... I'd say with some degree of confidence that porn (or at least "kinkyness") is about 2/3 to 4/5 of what is done in SL...

I guess you and I just disagree on this evaluation. I've flown through plenty of residential areas, I've seen what's there, and it's not adult-land. I guess to settle this, we'll need some actual data.

Well, the story of companies being happy about the way that pornography, gambling, escorting, and all sort of "nasty" un-PG-ish behaviour is slowly being reduced (if not banned), is not "cynical" at all... I have heard that comment from several companies ("oh, we would do more in SL, if it hadn't so much adult content" or "we cannot associate our brand to a world where we'll be next door to a porn theatre or sexy underwear boutique"). Fortunately, most of them are open-minded enough to disregard the issue, or old enough to remember the same arguments about the Web when it started; but, in honesty, we don't ever hear the comments from the companies that never entered SL because of its rampaging sex-oriented content industry... just from the liberals who understand the way the Web started, and SL is not different.

Point made, but I also see really angry articles out there lambasting SL for being pornographic, and no one seeming to care. Hillary isn't rushing to ban SL like she did Hot Coffee mod for Grand Theft Auto. Right-wing parent groups aren't rushing to have SL shut down or fined. Look at John Edwards - Fox News ran a smear story about them saying literally what you just said companies fear, "Oh, Edwards is next to porn! OMG!" ... that was the last we heard of that article.

(I said:) The simplest recourse to someone using the ban list to ban someone unjustly is to have them banned in return.

An eye for an eye... :)

I realize this is just a pithy quip, but seriously, there is a difference. Eye for an eye tried to equivocate bodily harm with financial reparations. The truth is, you can't make that connection. However, when you talk adding someone to an Internet no-access list, it certainly *is* an appropriate punishment for someone abusing that very list. Or, at the least, reversing their bans and not allowing them to add names to subscribable lists.

Not even spam lists work like that, Hiro. Think about what the SL Mafias will do (definitely "an eye for an eye") when they get this power. So far, they could only grief-on-demand (or sell "protection"); now they will be able to "ban-on-demand". "Join our list or else you and your tenants be banned from all the world..." What will a club owner or mall owner do? Risk losing their customers, or join the Mafia banlist?

Two responses to this:
1. Anyone openly doing this is violating extortion laws, and can get a permaban from Linden Lab for violating US law.
2. This assumes that people will want to subscribe to mafia ban lists. "Oh, the mafia ban list? Who cares who XYZ mafia hates!" will probably be the overwhelming response.

... The only issue here is that there is no appeal and recourse, except banning people in return, which really, doesn't help Jane Doe a lot (who will subscribe to her one-person list?).

Point made, and I've already agreed that appeal and recourse should be pushed.

(I said: ) 1. The amateur isn't completely out of the picture, because there's still a lot of squarish stuff. And remember lots of stuff sold are attachments, where 255 prims is plenty to do what you want.

Well, I agree that they won't be completely out of the picture, but it's another one of those "evolve or die" turning points in SL.

Not really. The learning curve is no more difficult than flexi-prims, lighting, or even when ring-prims came out. So what?

(I said:) 2. Sculpties are approximated in-world. As Gwyn pointed out, they are based on a 64x64 texture. That's *not* a whole lot of information for a complex object. Great for mushrooms, bad for detailed chair legs, as Gwyn asserted.

Indeed, although if one sculptie is not enough, get 4 or even 10 or 20 — it's far better than 300 tortured spheres to do a Starax-quality statue :)

Read what I said again. The answer is, "No, you're mistaken." No matter how many sculpties I use, I will have a hard time making sharp turns on an object without it being rounded and approximated - in much the same way as the land mesh works.

And am I the only person in SL who thinks, while Starax was talented, he's way over-hyped and over-rated by a community who has put him on a ridiculously high pedestal?

Ouchie, Blender... well, I'm not sure how familiar you're with it, but let me tell you, professional architects who are used to AutoCAD (which can be learned with a 20-hour course), after a month at looking at Blender, are still clueless on how it is supposed to work :) Having seen this happening a lot with several professionals — architects, even pro 3d modellers — I'd say that Blender is not a choice for someone who is a professional in SL, much less to someone who is an amateur in SL!

AutoCAD is very different interface. Besides, the scope here is flexiprims. Blender is really good at editing points and edges on objects, which is perfect for organic-looking, rounded-edged objects. There are tutorials. People can learn them. People are free to learn Maya, too. Last year, Maya offered an old version free. Ain't hard to get a basic mesh-editing software and grab tutorials for it.

It would be wiser to wait for LL's in-world modelling tool... even if that means waiting half a year.

Not sure what you're basing this on. Learning how to do 1 thing in say, Blender, may take a dozen hours or so. It's not like people will need to learn everything.

(I said, regarding replacing SL asset architecture:) How 'bout some insight into what that algorithm / architecture might be?

I asked Robin if they would be using DNS like the Sheep... it's the way to go, and not exactly a new idea. DNS is about 32 years old or so, and I've posted the suggestion to move the asset server to DNS back in 2004... the cool thing is that they could still use plain text files for storing assets, just how LL likes to do :)

And she said ... ? DNS doesn't solve the "commonly used items" problem, and it sure doesn't begin to address security of permissions issue. That's my take.

Gwyn: Only Linden Lab (and, well, the user community around SL) are thinking about this model.

Hiro: They are smart visionaries, but they certainly are not the *only* smart visionaries working in this field.

Being a visionary is easy if you don't need to run a company supporting a platform with 6.3 million accounts ;) ...

Realize I wasn't taking away from Linden Lab's accomplishments. Instead, I was pointing out that what you wrote implied that not only are other people not dealing with the issue directly, but they aren't even thinking about it. That's simply not true. Also, it can be said that outside thinkers can look at a problem from (a) fresh perspective (b) with less personal bias and (c) with disregard for how difficult it may be - sometimes the hard-to-implement answer is the only answer, as Havok 4 integration has illustrated.

Your statement went beyond comparing expertise, and was saying that other people don't even take interest, and that's not true. Maybe it's not what you intended to mean / say.

(I said:) [on the Sheep's use of DNS for distributing inter-sim content] Anyone with a couple programmers and a few weeks time can make a system that works for 100 or even 1000 users.

... but DNS currently supports a billion users :) Not a bad bet, I'd say.

Yeah, but DNS assumes that the data itself has no financial and IP value. There's no value to knowing what IP points to what domain. There is value in textures, in objects, in scripts. The DNS model becomes a nightmare when you have to consider security and permissions.

(I said: ) Off the top of my head, things like planar mapping on textures, allowing the camera to zoom in and out farther and easier, and allowing LSL access to land functions are three features that have happened in the last six months or so, and are all really useful.

My point exactly: three features in six months ;) Even Microsoft does more than that...

Let me reiterate, in a much larger, bold, red font so you don't miss it this time. ;)
Off the top of my head ... meaning that I didn't feel like recounting dozens and dozens of similar features, and I only wished to illustrate a few. There have been literally hundreds of small, valuable features implemented in the last 6 months. Even if you compiled the release notes for every release, there are features that sneak it that evade documentation.

Compare that to hundreds of pretty useful features between December 2003 and June 2004...

And I'd say that Linden Lab has maintained a pretty steady pace on smaller features.

(I said:) Linden Lab is putting out the features, but as Second Life has the big requests filled in, the newer features will be more subtle.

Possibly yes. However, I'd say that the number of features that they really, really require are not so subtle!

Here's my list: HTML, Havok 4 (for getting rid of the 0.01m limit), mono, facial expressions, voice. The rest is just features, in my opinion. Linden Lab is already working on the things I've listed, and as Cory Linden once pointed out, there's only so many programmers you can put on one project at the same time.

The point is, by mid-2008 SL has to look as good as Sony Home, but running on PC/Mac hardware. This should be LL's uttermost goal.

No, that's not the point. Sony Home is designed for gamers. If the Metaverse is supposed to be an augmented Internet, then SL has to look like ... drum roll please! ... The Internet!

That means HTML and flash are important, and graphics that can only be run on a cell-processor based machine and viewed properly on a ultra high def TV is not so important.

What's that sound? I believe, Gwyn, that was the sound of me shattering the basis behind your argument. *grin*

(I said:) Second Life can be fun and immersive in ways games can't, and not only is that okay, but it's better that way.

That's definitely true. However, the key issue will be: if the likes of Sony Home can figure out how to implement dynamic, user-created content in their much more advanced platform (I believe they'll have a huge disappointment, but we'll see...), SL will look like a "poor man's" metaverse with clunky graphics and lousy performance, and be not "fun" at all.

And they will face the same challenges as Linden Lab has, meaning it will take them years to work it out, while Linden Lab can continue to improve. We've been through this discussion, Gwyn. :)

Sony Home is proprietary. They don't want to play nice with others. Nintendo is the same way with the Wii. Microsoft is the same way with X-Box Live. Why? Because they are game companies, and they are thinking exactly the same way as the "OMG SL is a game" people that you so often dismiss.

So I find it ironic that you are using rationale that would normally come out of the mouth of people that you dismiss, to bolster your argument that Sony Home is competition.

Now, if you're looking for real competition, it may come from Google or IBM, who both have virtual world technology, lots and lots and lots of research money to spend, are in highly R&D based markets (compared to gaming, which is highly calculated marketing based), and are already in the "Internet" attitude, not the "gamer" attitude. While IBM's the new kid in the VW club, I pointed out exactly why Google is a threat in June of last year. I believe you had taken part of Google speculating around that time, too, so you should know better. *wry grin*

Right now, we can always say: "Sure, SL does not do all fancy effects, but it allows for dynamic user-created content, which is what people really want — if you want high-quality static content, go and play games." But for how long will this last? I'd say at least 2-3 years, but not much more, until the current rendering engine becomes so obsolete that nobody will ever want to look at it.

The big question is, will any of the current competitors outpace LL's development in that time frame, or will they fade and disappear?

I think this all is an excellent point, Gwyn. Realize SL content will always be divided into two flavors, possibly a third:
1. Amateurs. This is SL's equivalent of ugly MySpace pages. God Bless 'em! This will always be ugly and never at game-quality.
2. Professional. This will scale with CPU cycles, i.e. Moore's Law. If Linden Lab has 2-3 years, imagine then approximately 1.5 - 2 times the computing power, both on servers and viewers of Second Life. That's a pretty significant increase, when you consider SL pro content now looks like ... hmm... maybe 2003 graphics? 2004 when you count photo-realistic skins?
3. Intermediate. These are amateurs who are on their way to pro level. There won't be a lot of this kind of content simply because it's a transitional group.

So, Gwyn, does that make you the Linden Lab critic in the disguise of a fangirl, while I'm the fanboi in disguise as a critic? Or are you really a fangirl disguised as a critic disguised as a fangirl? Or ... ?

I'm confused. But feel free to reply. :)